Writer Mills Making Big $: Demand Studios
Warning, there will be ranting, foul language, crankiness, and gloves-off head-slapping here. I'm angry, and by the time you finish reading this, you'll be angry as well, if you're a freelance writer. Either that, or you're either dead from the shock or enjoying the life of a masochist.
Anyone who follows this blog knows that I've been taking shots at what I've come to call writer mills: companies that grind writers bones to make their dough. But I realized that there's one aspect I haven't covered: what the companies themselves are making off the cheap content. Maybe it's my own twisted perception, but these sites seem to exude a sense of "we're all in this together" bonhomie. Better change the last word to baloney.
So here's the first of a series, because I find it to be the most egregious case of a company making literally hundreds of millions of dollars -- a year -- off writers who will spend more time researching a story than a company offering peanuts for time, the one irreplaceable resource.
I've written before about Demand Studios and had the company respond, and in various comments had many people agree that you'd have to be nuts to work for that kind of money as well as had one person claim in the comments to be making something like $3K a month.
So what does Demand Studios make? I did some pretty easy snooping around various sources of information independent of the company. First, stop thinking of it as Demand Studios and use the real name of the corporation: Demand Media. "Studios" gives it a homey feel, as though you're working with a small group of people also trying to make a living in a tough world. Think again.
First, the CEO of Demand Media is Richard Rosenblatt. In case the name doesn't sound familiar, this is the now 40-year-old who sold MySpace.com and its parent company to Rupert Murdoch for $600 million. Certainly he didn't get all of that; venture capital backers would have taken a huge slice. But this is far from someone who is living paycheck to paycheck.
Speaking of venture funding, Demand Media has received it to the tune of $355 million since its founding in 2006. No, I'm not misplacing a decimal point. The company has received huge amounts of capital from such investors as Oak Investment Partners, Spectrum Equity Investors, and Goldman Fucking Sachs and, as a result, has shown about a $1 billion market valuation. According to a BusinessWeek article in July 2009, Demand Media was pulling in more than $200 million a year. The company hasn't confirmed that, but Rosenblatt says that it is profitable.
Are you starting to get a clearer picture yet?
Let's dig in more and look at some of its business activities:
Demand Media rakes in the dough, depending on the power of content, and is happy to have writers and editors slaving away at sub-burger-slinging wages. And there are thousands and thousands of writers who get taken in. Those who do aren't going to like what I'm about to say: You are all a bunch of sad dupes and Rosenburstwithbucks is undoubtedly laughing his ass off, or at least shaking his head in wonder, at the amount of time people will sell their souls and lives for less than what it would take to buy them and their significant others a cheap meal out just to get their heads patted and have the occasional compliment tossed their way. If you've been writing for Demand Studios, or any of these other writer mills, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and watch this clip of Harlan Ellison talking about getting paid as a writer.
For those who feel the need to write something, anything, start a blog. Create a newsletter. Put together a fanzine. Just do something that belongs to you, so that should something come of it, you're the one benefiting. Let the big time investors do their own work for a change.
Anyone who follows this blog knows that I've been taking shots at what I've come to call writer mills: companies that grind writers bones to make their dough. But I realized that there's one aspect I haven't covered: what the companies themselves are making off the cheap content. Maybe it's my own twisted perception, but these sites seem to exude a sense of "we're all in this together" bonhomie. Better change the last word to baloney.
So here's the first of a series, because I find it to be the most egregious case of a company making literally hundreds of millions of dollars -- a year -- off writers who will spend more time researching a story than a company offering peanuts for time, the one irreplaceable resource.
I've written before about Demand Studios and had the company respond, and in various comments had many people agree that you'd have to be nuts to work for that kind of money as well as had one person claim in the comments to be making something like $3K a month.
So what does Demand Studios make? I did some pretty easy snooping around various sources of information independent of the company. First, stop thinking of it as Demand Studios and use the real name of the corporation: Demand Media. "Studios" gives it a homey feel, as though you're working with a small group of people also trying to make a living in a tough world. Think again.
First, the CEO of Demand Media is Richard Rosenblatt. In case the name doesn't sound familiar, this is the now 40-year-old who sold MySpace.com and its parent company to Rupert Murdoch for $600 million. Certainly he didn't get all of that; venture capital backers would have taken a huge slice. But this is far from someone who is living paycheck to paycheck.
Speaking of venture funding, Demand Media has received it to the tune of $355 million since its founding in 2006. No, I'm not misplacing a decimal point. The company has received huge amounts of capital from such investors as Oak Investment Partners, Spectrum Equity Investors, and Goldman Fucking Sachs and, as a result, has shown about a $1 billion market valuation. According to a BusinessWeek article in July 2009, Demand Media was pulling in more than $200 million a year. The company hasn't confirmed that, but Rosenblatt says that it is profitable.
Are you starting to get a clearer picture yet?
Let's dig in more and look at some of its business activities:
- It owns eNum, which is one of the top sellers in the world of Internet domains.
- It supplies content to, among others, Reuters and USA Today.
- Via Pluck, a social network software developer it bought for a reputed $75 million in cash according to TechCrunch, it provides software to the likes of Gannett/USA TODAY, Guardian Unlimited, Hearst Corporation, Fox, The Washington Post, Scotts, Circuit City, and Kraft.
- According to ReadWriteWeb, another reliable source of tech info, Demand Media has a network of sites that is the 24th most visited in the US, as reported by comScore. These are page views driven by massive amounts of content, most of which is generated by freelance writers. To put that into perspective, that's more popular than NBC Universal, ESPN, and Expedia, as BusinessWeek notes. And the traffic brings such advertisers as Ace Hardware and Target.
- It's cut a deal with Sony to put self-help videos onto the former's Bravia television sets.
- Demand Media claims to have delivered a huge number of video streams to consumers, whether directly from its own sites or through YouTube. In fact, it says the number is over a billion.
Demand Media rakes in the dough, depending on the power of content, and is happy to have writers and editors slaving away at sub-burger-slinging wages. And there are thousands and thousands of writers who get taken in. Those who do aren't going to like what I'm about to say: You are all a bunch of sad dupes and Rosenburstwithbucks is undoubtedly laughing his ass off, or at least shaking his head in wonder, at the amount of time people will sell their souls and lives for less than what it would take to buy them and their significant others a cheap meal out just to get their heads patted and have the occasional compliment tossed their way. If you've been writing for Demand Studios, or any of these other writer mills, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and watch this clip of Harlan Ellison talking about getting paid as a writer.
They want everything for nothing. They wouldn't go for five seconds without being paid, and they'll bitch about how much they're paid and want more. I should do a freebie for Warner Brothers?Or for Demand Media or any of the writer mills? This makes me so angry that I want to grab writers by the collar and slap them repeatedly until the dazed look leaves their eyes and they get mad. Get mad at me first if that helps, but then get mad at those big corporations that are conning you and get mad at yourselves for letting them. That's all this is, a giant con job from the companies that writers are actually doing something valuable. And they are -- something valuable to the companies and to the rich people that start them and invested in them.
For those who feel the need to write something, anything, start a blog. Create a newsletter. Put together a fanzine. Just do something that belongs to you, so that should something come of it, you're the one benefiting. Let the big time investors do their own work for a change.
Labels: Demand Studios, writer mills
posted by Erik Sherman | 8:25 AM
97 Comments:
Erik,
I would be lying if I didn't come right out and say that I am enjoying your slant on this topic but I believe there are a few things you have interpreted incorrectly.
Is Demand Studios making money? I assume that they are and personally, I am glad that they do. A company that doesn't make money isn't there to pay you next week, ask any of the traditional media who have joined the ranks of the dead.
You incorrectly assume that the people who write for Demand Studios can or more correctly could get better writing gigs, many of them are untrained and work hard, perhaps too hard, at making a living - because it's something that they like doing and want to do. I interact with these writers, CEs and moderators on a daily basis. Many of them are making a living, perhaps eking out a living is a better choice of words, but they are able to work from their homes, set their own schedule, and work or not work as they see fit.
There is one writer there who has written professionally for three decades and has been published in magazines that are household names. When she got sick they dumped her and now she's making a living churning out articles for Demand Studios. Another writer I am familiar with puts in long days, seven days a week, but his earnings fluctuate between $750 and $1K per week. He was laid off and had reached the point where he was going to lose his house. Is the world all kinds of wonderful for him now that he has discovered Demand Studios? No, assuredly not - but he is surviving and I am ashamed to admit that this is more than a substantial number of American families can claim at this time.
With respect to the assertion that this isn't right, I would ask, what is right? Apparently there are somewhere around 1,000 people who believe it is right for them - and to me, that defines right.
Here's a challenge I freely offer you and would be thrilled if you would accept.
You believe that Demand Studios is not doing right by their employees and that Demand Studios should pay more money. You seem to be of the opinion that more money would lead to better quality content and I am inclined to agree with you. Good - now start a company that can hire some or all of these writers and will pay better money. Do it, they will come over to your company leaving Demand Studios. You will have created real change and possibly forced Demand Studios to increase their wages to match your company.
But here's the problem - you need to find a way to sell this content and still make a profit.
One thing I believe is certain, gone are the manufacturing jobs that once supported a healthy middle class. With them went any number of skilled trades, probably including journalism.
This is a time of transition and you can scream at the artisans who went to work on the assembly line, enduring having their souls sucked out of them by the hour, but the harsh reality is that buggy whips are no longer in demand - no matter how good a buggy whip maker you are.
As a disclaimer, I write for Demand Studios. I have no formal contacts with the company and if I dropped dead tomorrow I don't think they would notice. In fact, my writing skills are considered to be average and I do not produce a lot of content for them.
Keep fighting the good fight, there will always be those windmills which demand tilting.
Respectfully,
Ken DiPietro
LaVale MD
Erik,
That is the single best clip I've ever seen about writing. I actually took *notes*! Great stuff there: "Everyone else may be an a**hole, but I'm not."
Thanks for your work.
Jennifer Fink
Ken, I also agree that a company should make money. But I find it deplorable when a business model depends not on an exchange of value so much as the wholesale bilking of the naive.
I don't assume that all the people who write for DS could get more. But they could work to improve their writing so that getting a better assignment was possible. Or they could simply write for fun. But when you write for DS, you help create the assumption that the quality of writing doesn't matter and that, on the web, at least, the only important thing is quantity. It's a disservice to everyone in the business. As Harlan Ellison says in that clip, and rightly so, it makes the companies that want content assume that they are justified in throwing the orts to the creatives and actually take offense when someone wants payment equivalent to the value they provide.
As for the examples you provide, it is still possible to make a lot more than $750 a week if you can write. What you need to do is market and be smart about your business planning. That's what they need to learn, but so long as they tell themselves that DS is better than nothing, that's the choice they leave themselves: DS or nothing. Because there's no time left to do the necessary marketing. A writer would be better off taking a temp job to keep the wolf at bay and work on some solid queries.
You ask what is right. I would counter by asking what is intelligent. I know it's not supporting a system that leaves you scrabbling for any bits you can get. It's also not right for a company with this kind of backing to be willing to use people to this degree, whether or not the people think it's OK. There were miners willing to scrape away at rock under the most horrific of conditions until they collectively began to refuse to be treated as human refuse. Forcing someone to crank out, hour after hour, meaningless drivel and to grind away their lives day after day, with no time off, may not be as bad as what happened to the miners, but it's a spiritual cousin.
You say that I am suggesting that DS is not doing well by its employees. I have never made that statement because, for all I know, they treat the employees well. I'm talking about freelance writers who have to pay all their own health insurance and expenses and taxes. To pay $15 an article is spitting on them.
You say that I should start a company. Since that isn't an interest of mine, I can do a lot more good by pointing out what is going on and by offering the sizable amount of help and advice that I do regularly to help writers get smarter and do better for themselves. I know it's possible to do far better than DS - I do it myself and I've actually taught online classes where other writers have learned to significantly improve their business success. This isn't theory. I do it every day and know others that do it every day. The first step away from being treated like a piece of trash is to start admitting to yourself that there is something better out there. I'm telling you and other writers that there is.
Jennifer,
Something I find interesting is how Ellison looks at the world. Some would accuse him of being an asshole because he can be strident and demanding. But he is effectively saying that the assholes are those who, when kicked, roll over to offer the other side.
Ken,
Your attitude reminds me of when I was a union organizer. It was difficult to persuade people to unite when so many had such a low opinion of their own value and so could they easily be exploited.
Well said, Erik!
Your intentions are honorable but, with all due respect, you're way off base. Some of it's true, Demand Studios is a content mill which supplies articles to various websites. I don't think anyone can argue that.
Mr. Sherman, you seem like an intelligent man. Do you really believe Demand Media is selling $15, fresh from the spinner articles to Reuters and U.S.A. Today? Do you really believe Reuters and U.S.A. Today are buying and publishing $15 articles? Did you even ask Demand, Reuters or U.S.A. Today to comment before you embarked upon your bitter diatribe? True writers would have asked for a statement from all of the above before publishing such a negative piece.
As for the money, yeah they have a buttload. They also have a full time staff and employ thousands of writers. Money is used up fast when you have such a payroll.
7 articles a day, most written in 15 to 30 minutes, for $15 isn't a bad deal, even when you consider deductions. Many writers in "the real world" also earn $30 to $45 for an hour's work and they have a chunk of that removed for taxes and bennies anyway.
I'm not sure why I'm going on about this as you're so filled with hate you won't even try to see another point of view.
Demand Studios has been good to me. I earn between $45 and $60 an hour allowing me to stay home and take care of my three kids and disabled husband. When all the other content sites want to pay $1 for a blog post or, worse, residual income, Demand Studios pays a wage that adds up to about $50,000 for me at the end of the year, and that's only one of my clients. I don't have to pay for a visiting nurse, business clothes or a commute. More money saved.
So you go ahead and gripe about Demand Studios, Mr. Sherman. It gives me the opportunity to care for my family when they need me the most and I'm earning more than I did at my newspaper job.
Dear Anonymous,
Another person scared to post a name? Or a PR attempt by DS? Who knows?
However, let's get to the points. First, go do some checking yourself. DS has published material claiming to provide "content" to these companies and many others. Now, content might be blog entries, video, or any of a number of things. I don't see where I wrote that Reuters and USA Today are "buying and publishing" $15 articles. This stuff is used as search bait. But then, true readers read what is actually there, not what they'd like to be there.
Half hour per article? Then the results are likely pretty crappy - I know that because I know what goes into well-researched and written pieces. And I also know what it's like to write at high volume, as I often do that. I also doubt that it's actually a half hour per, because I know from experience and teaching how little concept people have of the time it really takes them to do things.
Full of hate? Not filled with hate here. Anger, yes, because I see people torpedoing themselves and others by rationalizing how the piecework rates they get are actually fine. Instead of making $30 in three hours as you claim, you could be making, oh, $300. Or more. And if you're "making more" than at your newspaper job, I suspect you haven't tallied the tax bill, which will eventually come.
And as for "all the other content sites" only wanting to pay $1 a blog entry, that's total horseshit. I know because I make a good deal more than that and know many writers who also do.
By the way, $50K would be $4,166 a month, which is significantly more than the "as much as $3,000" that I've seen DS claim. So, your post definitely seems to be either a clumsy PR attempt or the product of self-delusion. If it's a case of the latter, I'll tell you what I tell others - go through the numbers, do the math, see what actually happens, because it's unlikely that it's what you think. If you really do need to care for a disabled husband and children at home, I'd think that making more money would be an important consideration. Why does the idea that you could seem to bother you so much?
Thanks, Erik, for the update on DS. I didn't realize how much $$$ they were making off of writers' labors.
I once wrote an article on "How to Become a Professional Golf Instructor" for their eHow division. The article took me about 45 minutes to research and write.
Because eHow uses the "pay per click" model, I earned a whopping $4.74 after 9 months, which is when eHow pulled the article, claiming that "steps were missing."
To say, you might enjoy this article entitled "Who are the wealth creators?": http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/09/07/labor_day/index.html
Hope you have a happy Labor Day!
Mr. Sherman,
I chose to be anonymous here for several reasons.
1. I write under a pen name. It doesn't matter if I use my name or not because no one will know who I am.
2. I don't want to go through all of Blogger's sign ups and sign on's to post a comment here.
3. I don't want traffic from your blog to mine.
The the easiest route is to log in as anonymous. However, my real name is Janine McAllister. I write for Demand Studios (under my pen name) and also have a newspaper column (under that same pen name), one that pays me a lot less than Demand. I also have several private clients, they know my real name.
I do not represent Demand. They didn't send me here and this is not a P.R. attempt. I'd suggest paranoia on your part but I don't make assumptions without getting all the facts. They taught me this in journalism school.
When you mentioned Reuters and U.S.A. today as customers of Demand Studios, you implied they are accepting cheap content from Demand. I'm sure I'm not the only one who made this assumption.
Regardless of what Demand "claims" their writers earn, I know how much I earn. The past few months it has been more than $3,000 a month. Do I care that one angry writer doesn't believe I can earn a substantial income with Demand Studios? No. As a journalist I only care about presenting all the sides of the story.
You can go ahead and accuse me of being a poor writer because I'm prolific. This doesn't bother me. I realize you need justification for your attack on Demand and the people who write for them.
I have gone through the numbers. I was a staff writer and earned significantly less after taxes, health care and everything else, than I did as a freelancer with Demand Studios as a client. You're assuming we're all not intelligent enough to run the figures, we are. You're assuming we're not smart enough to write well, we are. You're assuming we're not good enough writers to turn out clean, prolific content. We are.
The idea that I can make more money doesn't bother at all. I know what I can earn and Demand isn't my only source of income but it doesn't mean I couldn't support my family entirely on what I earn from Demand.
The question isn't whether or not it bothers me that I can earn better money. It doesn't because I can and I do. The question is, why does it bother you so much that I'm a success?
Janine,
I've found in a number of venues that PR people will frequently post pretending to be a disinterested member of an audience. It's unfortunately a fact of life, though, to be fair, a previous time that someone from DS wanted to respond, it was by name.
I didn't imply that Reuters and USA Today and others get cheap content from DS. I said it outright. What I didn't say was that they were printing articles. More likely it's content for their web sites. That doesn't make it any better or worse; it's still trying to bulk up on cheap content.
You write, "As a journalist I only care about presenting all the sides of the story," but that isn't true as you said you're doing what you do to support children and a disabled husband. So please don't pretend that money is no issue. Of course it is. And for a family of, say, four, $3K a month before business expenses and taxes simply isn't much.
I didn't call you a poor writer. However, when you have to sling words to that degree, then you don't have the time to do the real research for pieces and you're sending stuff out about as fast as you can write it. Quality will go down whether you like to think so or not. It's the only way to keep the volume up. Better to spend four times the amount of time on an article and get 20 times the income - at least.
I assume that most writers a) don't run the numbers and b) when they do, run them overly optimistically. I say that having taught hundreds of writers how to do basic business planning.
And it bothers me when so many writers try to rationalize earning peanuts for articles, often, as others who have written for DS have said, depending on using the web and getting benefit of the research other writers have done, which means putting much of the workload on someone else. And no matter how you rationalize it, if you're doing work where you could ordinarily double or triple your income while doing a lot less shoveling of words, then it's simply undercutting yourself. Although I don't generally talk what I do personally, let me make it clear. Based on what I make and what many other writers I know make, an annual $36K -- assuming you could keep up the pace that you've only hit over the past few months, from what you have just written -- is chicken feed. You can make a whole lot more as a freelance writer. But not if you fill your time up with cheap piecework.
"Piecework," is the operative word. Piecework is concerned with speed, not so much with quality.
As for journalism: banging out copy is journalism only after all the research has been done; it is nothing more than banging out copy if hardly any time is available beforehand for research.
Banging out copy is in fact worth less than true journalistic writing, but that is not an endorsement for the efficacy of the results.
I think you don't quite understand the people who write for Demand and other content mills. Most of them do not seem to think of themselves as writers in the traditional sense--people who seek out clients, have portfolios, may have worked as a staff writer at some point, might have some formal training in journalism or PR. These are, paraphrased, the types of things I've seen content mill writers say in defense of the business model:
-"I don't have a journalism degree, so I couldn't write for higher-paid markets" (untrue, but people believe it)
-"I don't want to have to deal with lots of edits--editors are so picky! I can write an article in 30 minutes to an hour and it's almost always accepted"
-"It's reliable and they pay on time"
-"I can work as much or as little as I need to"
-"This helps me support my family from home while I take care of my kids/aged parents/disabled spouse"
-"I make more money than I would at Wal-Mart"
The thing is, all of these statements (except the first, which is just plain wrong) are true for these people. Content mills DO give them a reliable income stream that they control, and the work may be underpaid and mind-numbing, but they can do it from home and it's better than slinging burgers.
Many of these writers do not want to do the querying and pitching and client solicitation and self-promoting that goes with being a writer for clients who pay a reasonable fee. They don't want to work at improving their writing skills past content-mill-acceptable, they don't want to deal with the back-and-forth of editing.
(I don't think this is a description of every writer who writes for content mills, but the ones who make a significant portion of their income from them and defend them most strongly tend to make these arguments.)
So while everything you say about Demand Studios is entirely correct, it does not matter to most of the people writing for them. And most of the rest of us already won't.
Let us talk apples to apples. I wrote this article for which I was paid $15:
http://www.ehow.com/how_5339546_choose-pumpkin-painting-patterns.html
How long would it take you to write this article? I think that $15 is a fair price, especially as I did not need to spend time on a query letter.
I use Demand Studios to provide me with steady income while I wait for responses from queries and during slow times between translation jobs. Because I have this security, I can spend more time planning long-term income strategies such as writing a non-fiction book proposal. This is not glamorous work, but it is paid appropriately. I do not write articles which would require significant amounts of research. However, some of these same subjects are ones which other writers can do in fifteen minutes from their own personal knowledge.
There are ripoff organizations out there. I see them every day trolling on Elance and getafreelancer. Demand Studios is honest about what it does and what it pays.
Jenn Mercer
Melissa,
I can have some sympathy - I didn't major in journalism, never even took a course in the topic. And I do understand that the stream of assignments can be steady. But there are a couple of problems. One is that many people writing for the mills don't understand what they're not getting. Of course, yes, it depends on treating the writing as a business and trying to get good at what you do.
The second problem is that it helps knock down what writers can make in more mainstream work. After all, if the idea is that you want ad impressions, you pay little but make sure there are lots of keywords on a topic and wait for people to come by. I think that in the long run this won't prove to be a good business, because an audience wants value for its time. But I hear what you're saying - there are people happy to essentially take editorial handouts. Sorry for those who don't like hearing it phrased that way, but that's essentially what it comes down to when you're dependent on the kindness of a corporation or two.
Wanderjenn,
I will readily admit that DS is clear about what they pay. And, no, I'm not sure that what you pointed to is worth a lot more. However, spending, say, three hours to get several hundred dollars for even a magazine short would seem a financial advantage. And certainly if you know things off the top of your head, you can write more quickly. But this type of pay scheme reduces knowledge, experience, and background to a value of zero. They want to pay for the typing, basically, and not the knowledge. Some people talk about making thousands a month writing such stuff. That would seem soul-numbing. Even writing technical manuals would be more interesting. (And, believe me, I've done much of that many years ago and it's a stretch for me to say that.)
There is also the question of wanting to feel good about what you do. Yes, I understand needing to make money. (We're in college tuition land these days.) But why not feel that what you spend time out of your life doing might actually mean something to a reader. I'm not talking about a glamorous topic, just the chance to do a thorough job you can look at with pride.
Finally, I do wonder from where the DS writers get their information. I remember hearing from one who was a programmer and wrote about programming. But for the general service pieces, is the process generally looking at what others have written on the web and reworking that? If so, and it might not be the case, then the time savings actually stands on the back of what others have done.
So maybe I'm whoring around writing for ds, but oh well. I'm a stay at home mom of three and I don't really need the money as my husband makes plenty to support us. For me it's about the fact that it's easy and brainless. With 3 kids I have no time to send out queries and work on my portfolio and that's fine with me. That's not my focus in life right now. But sometimes I feel like buying an expensive pair of shoes or saving up for a nice trip and ds allows me to that with no strings attached. Would I point potential clients to my articles there to showcase my writing abilities? Hell no! But my trip to jamaica sure was fun. Don't feel sorry for me, my dear. Life ain't always ponies and rainbows but if we want to whore ourselves out writing how to articles than who the heck cares? Unless you can direct me to a Gig that is always available without
me doing a damn thing to get the ball rolling than I believe I will keep churning out mindless content in between diaper changes!
Sorry for the weird typing..figuring out my new blackberry..
Erik,
Who says I am not sending out queries to magazines? Yes, when I hit the big time it will be great, but I like getting a paycheck while I wait.
I do feel proud of what I do. I am sorry if you feel that I shouldn't. I have seen ads for "spinners" and "revisers." DS is not that type of place. I have seen SEO shops. DS is not that type of place either. I have seen ads for $1 for 250 word articles. DS pays far more. It is not a national, or even a local magazine either. That's ok. It is also not going bankrupt. There is room for everyone and if you associate DS with cheap outsourcing outfits then you have not done your research.
-Jenn Mercer
Wanderjenn,
Numbers like $300 for a front-of-book piece is not "hitting the big time." And I have done my research. The difference between $15 and $5 for an article is not much. I know that people who write regularly for DS and other mills think it is, but it's really not. Pretty much by definition, DS is a cheap outsourcing company, even if there are others that are far cheaper. I understand that many people will write for DS, but I wish I could explain how big a world exists, where you do work more on an article but start getting enough that one article could at the very least replace an entire week of DS sausage making.
I will say that I was drawn to the DS model of stories to be edited with choice of how much time to devote to the product, yet was baffled when the application process for editing involved stories I'd written. Though my responsibilities over the years have involved writing, and I don't think my abilities are all that poor, the ensuing rejection for editing was a bit surprising, given how desperate the company made itself out to be.
I would have liked to edit for perhaps $18 an hour, and after the rejection, my attempt to find out why was met with static.
As an in-between-jobs sort of affair, it seemed ideal, but if the sort of communication-impaired application process is indicative of actually working for them ... it's hard to see why people might be attracted to the prospect.
If I was single, I would throw Harlan down on the nearest bed and consume him. Anyway, great post--but it's like talking to a wall. For some reason, some writers--even good ones with a lot of potential to make great money on their own--just can't make the leap. So I say, fuck 'em. I'm sorry they won't be able to save for retirement, buy a home or take nice vacations with their freelancing income, but in the end it's just not my problem.
Also, the assertion that you should now start a company to save lazy ass writers who don't want to put in their time marketing and networking and building a profitable business is ridiculous.
Anyone who thinks that making $1,000 a week with DS by writing roughly 66 articles needs to have their head examined. Wouldn't you rather write 66 articles every QUARTER and make 10 times the money? Because if you cut the content mill umbilical cord and start building your freelance writing BUSINESS (you know, with a business and marketing plan and other cool adult stuff) you can. If you don't want to, fine, but don't expect to successfully defend your crappy choices.
Anonymous, cranking out a "story" in 15-30 minutes is not the mark of a professional journalist. It's the mark of a plagiarist, a mark of someone too lazy or too incompetent to do real reporting. It's the mark of a rank amateur, and unfortunately, it sounds like you fit in that category.
I hope you are well protected in case the lawsuits start raining down.
As professional ethics and professional standards go out the window, it opens the door for more and more lawsuits, but so many people who have suddenly decided they are "writers" have no knowledge of such issues.
I'm not defending Demand Studios, but I do have two comments.
1) You CAN write an article in 15-30 minutes w/no research without it being junk. We all have our own knowledge bases. As an example I wrote an article on wedding centerpieces in about 20 minutes. The Demand Studios templates don't typically require (or even allow) a lot of characters and it's not brain surgery, folks.
2) There is a very large difference between $5 and $15 an article when you can write at least 2 articles an hour, especially if you don't need to factor in queries, billing, etc. And if you try to argue that $20 extra an hour is nothing, it will be clear that you are living in some sort of alternate reality that the rest of us don't enjoy.
I'm not clear how people are writing full-time at Demand Studios and making a decent income, but who cares? For me, it's a way to bring in some quick extra cash now and again at an hourly rate that I am perfectly happy about. Should they be paying more? Perhaps for some of the more technical articles, but otherwise, not really. Honestly, I think you're wasting your time researching and writing about Demand Studios when there are bigger fish to fry. Textbroker, anyone?
Christy
Anonymous II,
That's pretty sad that you are willing to sacrifice quality, standards and professionalism for a new pair of shoes.
Well, it's not impossible to write a 400 word how-to article on something you know intimately in 30-60 minutes. I've been in the financial industry for a decade and have written a few how-to articles on getting your licenses, studying for the 7 and 2-15, etc. These are simplified guides that help give people an idea of what they are in for, not complex learning tools that explore every facet of the topics.
That being said, the majority of DS writers are not writing about what they know. They are writing about what they can "research" quickly--and I do use the term research loosely. To that end, I'll say I agree with Susan. But again, that just describes some of the writers. Many are good writers writing about something they have an expertise in, and they should be using that expertise elsewhere.
I'd agree with Yo Prinzel that people who write what they know can likely do it quickly (if they have the writing skills as well). But you can only keep that up for so long and then it becomes a tiring grind, so the "not much time" argument begins to fall flat.
Susan, I didn't say I was sacrificing professionalism or quality did I? My articles are very well written. While ds is not producing pulitzer material it is no different than writing for a book packager. When I've written for packagers I don't even get a by line! However no one is hollering for book packagers to stop producing titles. Where would the dora the explorer fans be if that happened? .... In any case my point is that it fills a niche. There is a market for cheap web content. There are also people who don't want to be fulltime professionals but who want to pick up a little money here or there. There is nothing wrong with that..it's capitalism at work. My pair of shoes is helping to stimulate the economy.
Anonymous,
>>For me it's about the fact that it's easy and brainless. <<
>>Would I point potential clients to my articles there to showcase my writing abilities? Hell no!<<
To me that doesn't exactly sound like adhering to standards, or displaying professionalism.
I certainly can't imagine calling the work I do "brainless," or being too ashamed to put it on my web site to highlight the kind of work I produce.
Apologies to everyone, I have been engaged in too many other tasks to give this discussion the attention it so richly deserves.
I would like to directly address what Yo Prinzel posted for a start...
It disturbs me to no end that any human being would gloat over their own mastery of a skill set while apparently being incapable of understanding that not everyone is capable of the same. Certainly, having won the birth canal lottery enables just about any sod to be moderately successful but your assumption that the only reasons writers choose to work for Demand Studios is that they are too lazy or have made bad choices in their lives seems incredibly naïve by any measure.
With respect to the unbridled callousness that you simply dismiss potentially millions of your fellow Americans with a hardy "F them" it is my hope that when the career you so optimistically assume will be there to nurse you into retirement goes the way of the Linotype Machine Americans will return the favor.
In the final analysis, Demand Studios provides regular paychecks (of admittedly questionable value by your standards) for thousands of families while you provide the content that keeps advertisements from bleeding together. And yet, you act as though your value to society is far greater than the people and organizations you criticize. I'm quite frankly amazed that you don't make suggestions of cake as a dietary supplement.
What bothers me to no end it that you have put me in the unenviable position of having to defend Demand Studios, something that is not my position to assume. As I have clearly stated previously, I find Demand Studios' business model fascinating if for no other reason than it is something new and quite possibly viable in a transitional time where the traditional guard is passing. Is Demand Studios perfect? No, assuredly not. Can their model be improved upon? I believe so and I am not sure that I am ready to suggest that they themselves are not looking at how to do this. In fact, if they have any aspirations toward staying in business there will be a need for many changes to be made. Let's hope these changes agree with everyone here as being good for the industry and this country – because the way things sit right now, media is dead, it just hasn't published its own obituary yet.
At this point I would like to offer you the last word in this discussion, should you decide to take it.
Ken DiPietro
LaVale MD
Clearly Mr. DiPietro is not an independent writer, is he?
Any independent writer who has his chops and has been doing this for a respectable number of years (in my case since 1988) should be able to clearly see the writing on the wall.
There are monolithic clearing houses going direct (as middlemen), taking the whole pie and paying writers in crumbs.
We are the galley slaves of the 21st century. Is that extreme? Then read this:
The giant ships that were driven by slave-power couldn't move in the water without the slaves, but kept the slaves in chains and fed them filth.
Giant corporations of today cannot grow and function without communication (the stuff that writers write), whether that's an annual report, press releases, brochures, ads, TV and radio commercials, and yet writers are paid peanut shells today (the peanuts are kept for others.
Most buyers of content, such as articles in respected magazines and newspapers, are still paying 50 cents to two dollars per word. Per word. Demand pays a writer $15 for an entire article. And actually I've heard even less sometimes.
We are facing the perfect storm of the internet, globalization and a flattened economy (thank you Thomas Friedman). And the outlook is anything but fair.
What it comes down to is media companies are experimenting with new models that cut costs while supposedly promoting the egalitarian idea of citizen journalism. While people who write for Examiner, eHow and About can argue that it's been fruitful for them, it's really just mass production. Envelope stuffing. The more you do, the more you make. The bottom line is that paying less for more works for the company. It's a profitable model. I just hope it's not one that's applied across the board.
LCS249,
No, I am not a professional writer, freelance or otherwise, but I do know the end of a obsoleted industry when I see one.
Monolithic clearing houses? Oh please, the drama is killing me. The Internet has changed the game, in effect leveling the paying field. No longer do you have to sleep with the record company executives to get your album produced nor are you prevented from being published by a group of gatekeepers who forever rejected almost all of our best authors at one time or another before finally allowing them access to the press and distribution network. No, now anyone can publish their work - and a content mill isn't required to do so.
Now, can you attract an audience?
Would Huffington Post or Daily KOS ever have seem the public light of day under the system you lament passing? Would we even have the forum we have here courtesy of Mr Sherman's writings if the letters to the editor model was in charge?
You worry about becoming a galley slave but according to Yo Prinzel you are where you are because you made bad choices - suck it up and pull yourself up by your bootstraps man.
Bob Dylan warned us that the times they were a'changin' in the 1960s.
They changed, deal with it.
Erik,
With all due respect, this argument seems to be couched from the position that the only venue one has to write is through a content mill. Many of the people here, including you understand that this is not the case.
Some people choose to write for content mills, it is their choice. Their motivations span the entire range - but they choose to do so, no one is forcing them.
To be completely honest with you, I can't even begin to fathom why we are even spending the effort we are on this subject.
Content mills cater to a small slice of material, they are not interested in political commentary, no million of people supply that for free on sites ranging from Free Republic where Poe's Law rules to Democratic Underground.
Why is it that no one here is upset with sites like Fark where a small portion of nearly 500,000 members create all the content that seems to amuse themselves for free! What about those slavedrivers at SlashDot who haven't paid a single content provider (that I am aware of) since the day they opened their site?
I honestly have to say that I deeply appreciate that you work to educate writers who choose to learn how to better their business skills - but many people are just not cut out for that.
Need an example of this?
Here is a wisdom that almost everybody knows - when you purchase a car from a dealer you will be given a lowball price for your trade-in. Yet how many people here refuse to sell their used car by themselves and take a hit equal to a month's pay or better so as to avoid what should be a simple business transaction?
My point is that you and Yo seem to have the ability to not only write well but to sell your wares. Two distinctly different skills. Many people cannot or will not ever make it to that point.
Again, I want to thank everyone for this incredible discussion, the subject matter fascinates me beyond what I can put into words.
Holy cow!
First of all, thanks, Erik for posting this. I have a degree in Journalism and have been writing editorial and marketing stuff since 1982. While editorial has never paid really well - unless you're among the uber-elite writers - I remember writing an article about 10 years ago for a little local magazine and at least getting $25. That was TEN years ago for a magazine with a very limited readership, not something for the web with the potential to reach millions for $15. Think about it.
Times being what they are, I've been looking at doing more freelancing (our 17-year-old design firm doesn't need me full time) and have been APPALLED at the rates. Stunned. I have written for some very big names, won awards, (blah, blah, blah) and have commanded up to $150 an HOUR for my work. Yet, I'm now supposed to compete for $15 jobs?
I've actually tried working through Elance and DS (heck, after 27 years, I can crank crap out really fast) but have found that without having established myself within that community (i.e. having already had a gig) I can't break in. How am I even supposed to break in? How do you low ball a $15 job? I gave up.
Here's what I think. America is dumbing down, down, down. And media is moving faster, faster, faster. Not a great combo for a seasoned, talented writer. As long as the public doesn't recognize - or care about - quality, but only wants speed, it doesn't bode well for us. But I think there has to be a growing market for sharp editors. Citizen journalism/marketing will, unfortunately, continue and we can only HOPE the publications/buyers will come to realize that, while you can buy your content cheap, it pays to have someone comb over it and pull it together. Bone up on your AP Stylebook guys...it's gonna be ugly for a while.
These writing mills remind me of those sites where people describe some medical symptom they have, then ask, "Does anyone know what this could be?" Then a bunch of laypeople copy and paste something from Mayo Clinic, or opine at length based on something they saw on the TV show House. It doesn't add a bit to the world's reservoir of knowledge.
I used to work in-house at a major publisher, and I've operated a freelance writing business for 7 years. I work hard to maintain relationships with clients. I got a master's degree in a health science just to further my knowledge in my field. I spend *hours* interviewing top experts and more hours writing my assignments. I think all these people relieving themselves of three "articles" an hour based on their personal experiences for $15 are glutting the world's information outlets with cheap, meaningless words. I'm glad you've found something you enjoy doing. But does it need to be done?
I agree with you Ken, I was needlessly harsh. Believe it or not, I actually care so much about this issue I had hit a wall at the point I posted that. Thanks for calling me out.
Yo, Yo Prinzel,
I don't think you were being too harsh at all. Your first post was level-headed response to a situation run amok.
Ken kinda sorta sounds like he works for DS...
Erik,
Great post! I'd forgotten about that Harlan Ellison clip.
LCS249,
Instead of debating any of the points I presented you choose to attack my character?
I have been about as open and honest as it is humanly possible to be with respect to my relationship with Demand Studios as well as my motivations for posting here.
At this point I would like to offer you the opportunity to publicly apologize for employing what has universally been considered as one of the most abhorrent forms of debating techniques. It did occur to me that you might have have chosen this method to illustrate the worst that traditional journalism has to offer and I admire your subtlety in doing so.
That is what happened, right?
Yo,
In all honestly I believe what set me off is everything that I have read that you have posted here led me to believe that what you were claiming in that post was so out of character for you.
I do believe that both you and Erik are trying diligently to improve this field. In times of transition, such as the print media (or more correctly what the entire media industry) faces today, it is increasingly difficult to feel comfortable in what our futures will bring as opposed to what is possible in stable times.
As I mentioned, I believe there is a business opportunity for professionals like yourself to find a way to make it convenient for writers who do not have the marketing skills to sell their content. I say this not as someone pitching a charity proposition but purely from a mercenary standpoint that also would provide a necessary service.
Erik has provided a counter as to why he believes that this business model would fail - because there isn't enough money in it. While I am willing to accept that fact, or let me restate that, while I am willing to accept the fact that this type of referral or content brokering business will not generate enough revenue to be sustainable ***under a traditional framework*** it may be possible to leverage the net to create such an infrastructure that could do so with little human intervention. In fact, this is part of what Demand Studios seems to be pioneering - even though I believe that how they are going about it has faults.
The question before this forum is how do we accomplish two things; secure a place for excellent quality content creation and ensure that the writers who produce excellent quality material have a workable system to remain viable.
Believe it or not, this is an important topic to me as a consumer of quality information and to a lesser extent an amateur writer that honestly has no place standing among the those of you here that have forgotten more than I will ever know.
And thank you for having me,
Ken
Dina,
Searching for good, solid, information from credible sources takes up way too much time in my day. As a technical person having access to accurate information is critical so the idea that information that is poorly researched and badly written will displace you is not likely to happen. There is still a demand for premium quality information and that venue still pays well.
With respect to what Anonymous posted I would take exception that it take someone of your caliber to write an article as titled "How to wash your hands."
Still, Anonynous does bring up an excellent point, at what point will we all begin to drown in drivel? And if the information superhighway becomes clogged with erroneous information at what point will this cause us to look elsewhere or demand something better.
It is the demanding something better that causes the market to react. If EHow continuously puts out garbage (and I am not saying they do) the site will quickly get a reputation for being a garbage dump of misinformation. My guess is that the people at Demand understand that if that judgment comes to pass they will be out of business.
I don't believe excellent quality content is dead or that there isn't a demand for it but I do believe that the mechanism that writers have to go through to get the premium level of work out to the public is flawed.
Yo believes that you should either stop making bad decisions or be f'ed. In contrast I started my comments asking someone to create a better way for people like you to be able to find good paying work and get me the content that I want to read.
Differing viewpoints, it's what makes the world go 'round.
I agree with you Ken--I was unnecessarily harsh and cruel. While I stand by my opinions, there was no need for me to be so acerbic. I think I allowed myself to be set off by some of the anti-Erik comments earlier in the thread, but I did myself no favors by lowering myself to their level.
Thanks for calling me out :)
Ken,
I can name about a bajillion (okay, maybe I'm exaggerating) blogs and ebooks (including my own) that do almost nothing but write about marketing and networking ideas, portfolio improvement ideas, etc. to help writers learn how to make more money on their own than DS pays. I think for me, that also explains some of the tremendous frustration. While I have helped many writers get out of the pennies-per-word cycle, there are still so many who just won't take the lessons and run with them. I've gone so far as to start coaching writers--for free--by phone to help them see how to apply the lessons on my blog to their own careers. My most recent success happens to be someone who was writing for DS full time, making about .035 per word. She now makes .08 per word with a very high profile private client. It's really not that hard--and it's not just a lucky few who can do it. Rather than yell at "old schoolers" or try to justify working with DS because, "this is a whole new world and it's the only way" I would like to see DS writers try other methods. If they don't want to, fine--but don't try to act like there is no other way and that I just refuse to see the writing on the wall.
I'm sure everybody following this thread appreciates what you're bringing to the discussion Ken. But writing is a business. Anybody that doesn't have the ability or will to pitch and market themselves should not be freelancing. These are not optional skills.
Yo,
First off, I am thrilled that people such as yourself and Erik will put their time into doing what you both do. It certainly puts an entirely different perspective on your positions. If one were to be introduced to both you and Erik strictly from Erik's blog rant and the first post I met you through one would come away with a very different opinion.
Second, when I finish this post I am going to head over to your blog and read through it. ;-) Once I have done that I can come back here a bit more educated and perhaps add more to the discussion.
Somehow I don’t seem to be communicating and I am finding that frustrating.
Let’s use an example from my life.
A few years ago a good friend’s mother passed away after a long battle with MS. She was a brilliant writer, a person who could sculpt words with incredible precision and towards the end, with the help of her son, that was pretty much all she could do.
This is one specific example of someone who was physically incapable of pitching her material or much of anything else for that matter. I admit that this is an extreme and possibly unique case but I can certainly see a range of afflictions, both physical and psychological, that would prevent people from doing what you and I do normally.
Some people can sell, it is a skill, no doubt but so isn’t playing basketball and I can assure you with no loss of embarrassment that I will never be good at it.
Somehow, and it may be because my posts are split between this and another article regarding Demand Studios, what I am trying to say is being misread or distorted into some kind of sweeping defense for them. I do believe that there is a lot of good in what Demand Studios is doing. I write there even though I am probably close to leaving but there is an incredible community of people there who help each other. Heck, I spent 45 minutes on the phone with someone I never met walking them through getting their notebook back on line (wirelessly) after HP tech support screwed up their access point/router.
I do believe that the media is changing and I don’t believe anyone can disagree with that assertion.
At one time our society depended on horses for transportation and to get work done, then came the railroad, and then the car. I do not lament those changes but I am sure there were people who fought them bitterly.
The question that needs to be addressed is not how we can keep an obsoleted enterprise afloat, it is how we can all best position ourselves to be ahead of the curve.
As much as there seems to be a need to paint Demand Studios as the bogeyman, they are nothing more than another option being added to the mix and the people who choose to write or edit for them should, no MUST, have that choice. Will they do it for life? I don’t know, some will I suppose. Others, people like me, may do it for a while and move on.
I’m not a writer by training (What? You can tell?) I am a techie who is fascinated by what effect Technology, primarily the Internet, is having on all segments of our society.
Since I’m heading over to your site, here is a link to one of the blog posts I wrote about the time I was accepted to write for Demand Studios.
http://tinyurl.com/qvbmr2
If nothing else this should give you all the ammunition you need to tear into me and I probably deserve it.
Anonymous,
I respectfully disagree.
Writing is a skill, certainly but many people tend to master one skill to the detriment of others. I do not hold that against them. Now I do appreciate that you qualified your assertion by specifying freelance writers but even there some people are not going to as good as other at selling.
Lord knows that writing generates enough rejection (which is tough for some people to take) but sales is an entirely different animal.
I admit that I don’t have the answer but to suggest that this is a binary situation where you either can sell or you can’t write does not seem entirely honest to me.
By the way, I do appreciate being made welcome here. Thank you.
Ken, I took Anonymously differently. The point wasn't that either you can sell or you can write. It was that if you're in business for yourself -- whether the business is freelance writing, lawn care, or retail -- you must be able to sell and market. It's not an option because you can't be in business without doing it. I've seen many people go into business for themselves only to find that it was an enormous mistake because they won't attend to the selling.
Erik,
I can accept that interpretation.
This stems back to the initial question we have been batting about - can a referral service that buys and resells content be a good thing for both the writers who can't seem to do that work themselves and the referral company?
Call me pessimistic but I have come to believe that some people cannot sell. As someone who had to learn that skill myself (and is still learning it) it is a difficult thing for some personality types to break into or to perfect.
Does that preclude them from writing? I don’t know but my height didn’t do much for my basketball ability. I can still drink beer with the best of them though.
Ken, I wouldn't disagree that some people aren't born to sell. But the vast majority can learn, because real selling is very similar to building relationships and being interested in other people, and you'd hope a writer could do that.
The problem with a referral service is that the prices for content are already low, so it makes it tough to make money if you're not necessarily adding significant value outside of making something available. When you aren't trying to sell high end content, it becomes far more difficult because there is that much less margin to offer a cut.
Yo Prinzel how can you say you want to ravage Harlan Ellison one moment and turn around and troll Twitter for cheap labor?
You just asked a bunch of "guest posters" to provide free writing for your blog.
Yo Prinzel "Pay the Writer!"
Mark
I write for Demand Studios when I don't have another project going. I too have a family member to care for so it lets me make a little money from home when I don't have a grant to write.
DS is kind of to the writing industry what McDonald's is to the restaurant industry. It's entry level writing - work you can pick up whenever you want it. It's nice to have a backup because the folks who pay me well as a consultant, also have no compunction about dropping a project without warning and leave me high and dry.
That's okay. If you don't like the deal, don't write for 'em. I think you could write better content than DS on these subjects, and, actually, I'm trying to do that with some of my websites, but it's tough to compete because DS has the whole search engine optimization thing down to a science and my stuff will wind up about 5 pages back on a Google search for quite a while yet.
Life ain't fair, but we muddle along.
I think there's a place for DS. I'm also doing a whole bunch of ad supported blogging and on-line sales and whatever else I can do - such is the freelance writing life. You do what you've got to do.
If I had the money, you bet your butt I'd start one that pays better. I hate doing articles that meet narrow guidelines that prohibit you writing a good article sometimes in favor of one that "draws traffic". I got in trouble for writing an article that says you can't get free government money for being a woman wanting to start a business. It was rejected I think, because it directly contradicted the advertisers in the margin. Even though I have a decade and a half of grant writing, I don't write articles about grant writing for DS anymore because I can't in good conscience write something that is congruent with the message of DS client eHow's advertisers.
Pete et al, I, too, have an extensive background in writing and editing but was flat-out rejected within hours of applying to Demand Studios. Their site said they had over 2000 editing assignments available.
So what gives. If they are getting crappy writing -- the only kind that can be done in 20 minutes per article; typos alone plague the best of us when we write that quickly - - who is turing all that straw into the gold they are selling their clients?
In an ideal world, it would be recognized that ds is really for between-jobbers, part-timers, stay-at-home-moms, writing hobbyists and others that don't necessarily rely on writing mills for a full-time income. However, the problem is that multi-million dollar mills are marketing themselves not only as places to make a decent living but as forums for aspiring writers to build careers.
The latter assertion implies the mills are reputable brands that house good editorial content. Although there may be some good examples of writing throughout its site, the reality is that these large corporations only care about amassing quantity; quality in a post is just an added bonus. So even though ds might house content of thought leaders in theory, in practice its low standards for posting SHOULD prohibit readers from taking the content seriously. Likewise, writing talent evaluators hopefully take ds postings with a grain of salt.
Nevertheless, ds and other clearinghouses like billionaire Phil Anschutz's Examiner.com are blurring the line between reputable and hobby writing and devaluing the craft -- both in terms of standards and monetary value -- in the process. Writer mills certainly aren't the only reason average readers often fail to distinguish between reputable content and recreational writing in the Web 2.0 world, but they're definitely one of the guilty parties.
If the mills marketed themselves honestly -- that is, as a place for writing hobbyists and folks who need some extra side cash -- I'd have no problem with them. But the reality is they're positioning themselves as providers of reputable content while simultaneously turning the work that goes into providing that content into near-poverty wage labor.
Frankly, as a corporate writer, I find it insulting.
Anonymous said...
"Pete et al, I, too, have an extensive background in writing and editing but was flat-out rejected within hours of applying to Demand Studios."
Copy Editors don't "edit" in any real sense of the term, in fact I believe they are only allowed to make a minimum of changes - like six. CEs are there to make sure that the material submitted meets the Demand Studios' Style Guides.
Anonymous said...
"Their site said they had over 2000 editing assignments available."
It is my understanding that CEs are required to put in a minimum of 12 hours per week - and considering that they must average six or seven articles finished every hour to make a better living than a burger joint, 2000 editing assignments can eaten up quickly.
Anonymous said...
"So what gives. If they are getting crappy writing -- the only kind that can be done in 20 minutes per article; typos alone plague the best of us when we write that quickly - - who is turing [excellent example of what you're talking about ;-)] all that straw into the gold they are selling their clients?"
Let's separate the truth from the fantasy here.
While there appears to be people who do three article in an hour, I would guess that those articles are Fact Sheets - which have a maximum of 200 words. If you can't create decent content typing at ten words per minute, you probably should get a secretary.
The site provides a spell check but if you can't write and spell correctly, Demand Studios has no problem showing you the door.
Instead of speculating, I would suggest that you pay a visit to LiveStrong or even EHow and grab some content to discuss. With EHow, remember Demand Studios didn't create or approve all of the content there, any idiot can sign up and post whatever they want under a revenue sharing deal.
jlavietes said...
"In an ideal world, it would be recognized that ds is really for between-jobbers, part-timers, stay-at-home-moms, writing hobbyists and others that don't necessarily rely on writing mills for a full-time income. However, the problem is that multi-million dollar mills are marketing themselves not only as places to make a decent living but as forums for aspiring writers to build careers."
There are several people there who manage to hit sixty-five 400 to 500 word articles in a seven day week. The best I have ever done is six in a day - and that was only one time - but I am not a trained writer.
If you can churn out 26,000 words per week (minimum) you can make $50K/year gross. Some people find that to be adequate compensation.
jlavietes said...
"The latter assertion implies the mills are reputable brands that house good editorial content. Although there may be some good examples of writing throughout its site, the reality is that these large corporations only care about amassing quantity; quality in a post is just an added bonus. So even though ds might house content of thought leaders in theory, in practice its low standards for posting SHOULD prohibit readers from taking the content seriously. Likewise, writing talent evaluators hopefully take ds postings with a grain of salt."
I would suggest that this is up to the market to decide.
As a personal comment, completely devoid of any of the content mills, I am finding Google (or any of the search engines) to be next too useless. Too much garbage and too little good information. If the market eventually comes to the same conclusion that I have, this will have quite an impact on Google's business model as well as the content mills.
jlavietes said...
"Nevertheless, ds and other clearinghouses like billionaire Phil Anschutz's Examiner.com are blurring the line between reputable and hobby writing and devaluing the craft -- both in terms of standards and monetary value -- in the process. Writer mills certainly aren't the only reason average readers often fail to distinguish between reputable content and recreational writing in the Web 2.0 world, but they're definitely one of the guilty parties."
Please, if you feel threatened by the material that content mills are flooding the net with you might want to think about what that says about how you value the content that you write.
Did the market for tenderloin disappear when McDonald's became a household word?
jlavietes said...
"If the mills marketed themselves honestly -- that is, as a place for writing hobbyists and folks who need some extra side cash -- I'd have no problem with them. But the reality is they're positioning themselves as providers of reputable content while simultaneously turning the work that goes into providing that content into near-poverty wage labor."
Again, this is up to the end customer to decide (Demand Studios is its own end customer of this material in many cases) as well as the writers themselves.
jlavietes said...
"Frankly, as a corporate writer, I find it insulting."
I honestly cannot even begin to fathom why you would feel that way.
To all,
I ran across an interesting TED video that indirectly touches on some of the points being discussed here.
Clay Shirky: How social media can make history
http://tinyurl.com/kwf2xd
We all know that the world is changing and specifically that media is changing but how that change is going to manifest itself is something that we will need to address. The question of how each of us can position ourselves to take advantage of these changes or at least best prepare to make sure it doesn't obsolete us entirely.
Respectfully,
Ken DiPietro
Erik,
thanks for the post and especially the video clip. I wrote exactly two pieces for DS before I realized that this entire operation was bogus. The video reminded me just in time that my work is worth more than the $15 they offer.
Michael
*slow clap*
I agree with everything you say and more, Erik. However, for people who are in debt, starving or about to lose their homes, writing for $15 an article is a great attribute. Also, keep in mind it's been said (by some of the writers) that in the real world, they can't make more than minimum wage. So for them, $15 is gold. While I am in complete agreement with you - 100% - until the writers become fed up and insist Demand Media pony up, it will not happen.
On the other hand, who is to say that Demand will even be around in the next 5 years?
Habitual "writers" for Demand aren't interested in that, either. They are stuck in the NOW (gratification) mindset only.
If you do research, you'll see how many people are happy to take Demand Media's money. They are attempting only to fix an immediate problem, and have no desire to become professional journalists or writers. The silliest aspect of this is how Demand Media counts itself as being an authoritative source.
Erik,
I loved your blog. Demand Studios tried to get me involved and I told them where to stick it. I am glad I didn't write for such a scumbag company.
Thanks for the post.
Harry
Everything you say is true. When I hear stories of people claiming to make even $1k a month, I am truly amazed. I just did 4 articles for DS for $30. I can't imagine doing any more than I did in one week. Even if I did DS as a full-time 40-hr gig, I wouldn't make enough to live at all. There are better writing gigs out there and I'm fortunate enough to be working for some of them.
Well Erik, I must say I wholeheartedly agree with you, but shamefully at that. Why is it that a writer should have to claim "shameful agreement?"
I recall every single one of my English teachers, all throughout my High School years, gawking in amazement at my writing skills. Every one of them stated that I should "be a writer" when I got out into the "real world."
The problem for some writers isn't that they are lazy or unable to climb the ladder, so-to-speak. My situation can be a clue as to why some of us find ourselves (horrors) accepting lower income. For some of us, it's all we can procure.
I come from farm country out in the sticks of Western Nebraska. Our family suffered setback after setback financially as whole crops were hailed out or washed out years in a row. It continued until there was nothing left for our parents to send us to college where we could become ACCEPTED professionals.
There is something called a snowball effect. It isn't an excuse. Any businessman knows that it takes money to make money when trying to run things as your own business. With "real world" jobs paying meager salaries these days, you can hardly support your family, much less scrape up enough to pay your way through college. And, without college, you will never have the "credentials" needed to be called a "real journalist" by those who were able to sink money into a college.
I became unemployed in August of 2008, ran a lawn business during this past Summer but we got an early Winter this year with six inches of snow on the ground as I write this. With no less than thirty job applications out (more around 34 if I remember correctly) and a silent telephone, some such as myself really honestly have no choice.
I found myself writing for DS. But here is the clincher. I believe in quality over quantity. Yes, I use the internet to research, but I never write based on one web resource or one reference. I require three or four, and at no time do I have less than six tabs open in Firefox browser. In some cases, I go so far as to do whois look-ups on site owners and then research those individuals if the task calls for it. Therefore...
Not everyone cranks out inferior articles and "fact sheets" as they are called. Unfortunately, because of TRUE research, I can honestly say that the average I generate on most items submitted comes to a whopping $6 - $8 per hour. Yet, it IS income when there is no other income available at this time in our rural area.
Rather than denigrating those of us stuck in such a situation, wouldn't it perhaps be more constructive to take those who do desire to become REAL JOURNALISTS under your wing in some way? It seems to me that, if the same energy being expended here were invested in those who are truly interested in sharpening their skills, the information presented on the web (and elsewhere) would be more valuable than it is (or shall I say, becoming?).
As a final note about the regression of authorship today, even publishers are being subverted by technology. Amazon came out with their "Kindle" which now permits anyone to write an electronic "book" and to sell it through Amazon. No editors to review the materials, no printers, no ISBN.
I personally feel it to be a wiser expenditure of time and energy to be reaching out to those who want to write, instilling into them proper skills even if it means doing so in a voluntary manner. The reason is simple...
When the written word arrives at a point where it is such a commodity so hopelessly taken for granted, the educated journalists will be carried away in the flood mercilessly and with no further recourse but to join the ranks of commodity writers. This, in a climate where we find writer after writer who doesn't know the spelling differences between there, their, they're -- and those who use "than" in place of "then" and "then" in place of "than" -- absolutely ludicrous.
Cheers.
You my friend are sadly out of touch. You sound like one of those "old media" writers who is whining and crying because "new media" came in and ruined your party.
$15 an article is hardly burger flipping rates.
Some people write full time on DS while others write part time; either way it often pays far more than other websites.
Did I mention get with the times? Did you think the writer party of making absurd amounts per word was going to last, really?
Get off your high horse and go write like the rest of us and quit whining. Things change, you need to deal with it.
I've mostly let the comments go on for a while, but I'll address the last anonymous (of course) poster.
>> You my friend are sadly out of touch. You sound like one of those "old media" writers who is whining and crying because "new media" came in and ruined your party. <<
Chum, I work in print, on the web, and in mixed media. I've been doing so for years, know the market intimately well, and have regularly shifted my business model as necessary. I'm fine and actually do understand the industry, the business drivers, and the potential.
>> $15 an article is hardly burger flipping rates. <<
You are a moron. Sorry, I've avoided being really harsh so far, but your ignorance is so total and colossal that trying to get you to a level of basic understanding would be almost impossible because you think you know what your talking about and you don't. $15 for an article is total chump change. It's the type of money I would cover for expenses without even thinking of asking for it back because it wasn't worth tracking. Before you come in trying to show how much you know, maybe you should pull your head out of wherever it is and do some research.
>> Some people write full time on DS while others write part time; either way it often pays far more than other websites. <<
What do you think relatively good pay for web sites is? How about a buck a word and up? How about $50 to $70 plus (with the upper end being far above) for a blog post? If you want to tell yourself that $15 is the "going rate," go right ahead. But you really don't know what you're talking about.
>> Did I mention get with the times? Did you think the writer party of making absurd amounts per word was going to last, really? <<
It might be absurd for what you do. Many companies pay me what I make because I can do what they need and you can't. Pure and simple. If you could, you'd be making a lot more money. Or even if you could put in the time, research, energy, craft, and caring into something, you'd have to understand its value and talk to people who also did. But my bet is that you'd have to work a whole hell of a lot to get to a point where you'd have something significant to offer.
>> Get off your high horse and go write like the rest of us and quit whining. Things change, you need to deal with it. <<
Why should I crank my efforts, results, and income back like that when there is no need to? As I said, I've been changing with the times and continue to. That's why I can say what I say with assurance.
And to make this absolutely clear, in case anyone doesn't get the overall thrust of my point, I don't fear from the likes of DS. It doesn't affect me because it doesn't even come close to what I do. However, I get outraged when I see savvy business people trying to play for chumps writers, who often don't get business and don't understand their own value. And trying to kiss up to the DS's of the world won't change things.
And the conversation continues...
In the last several weeks since I posted here I have been quite busy myself. In that time I have come to a series of conclusions which bring me back here to share them with you all.
First off, let me state the obvious, or what should be obvious to most here.
Major changes are happening and anyone who believes they will survive by continuing in a traditional manner is doomed to the fate of a typewriter repairman. At the same time, I am not suggesting that a decent living is unattainable in this field.
Second, while we have people beating Demand Studios up here, I see next to no options for someone like Mr. Schanaman to follow. To that I would suggest that if nobody here can provide an option, the chances are pretty good that you all have come to the conclusion that there really aren't any.
Moving ahead...
A good friend sent me a link to the video I am providing below. He is a professional writer and has been for his entire career. He is also someone that can read the handwriting on the wall.
http://vimeo.com/4671951
While this guy is not a writer, as evidenced with his continual use of every swear word in the book, and while I find his presentation to be somewhat immature, the message is 100% right on the money.
I come from the technology world, I watched the PC decimate any number of technological powerhouses that came before it. I am now watching as the Internet completely disrupts entire industries, including what we think of a journalism. Based on that experience, I can say to you all now, with complete certainty, you haven't seen anything yet.
I'd take Demand Studios any day over scam businesses like Internet Labor. Did work for that flake and never got paid. At least DS pays. So hard to make money freelancing, but I'd rather have something I can rely on than a business that promises, but never delivers.
Hey everyone! I hear and concur with both sides of the content mill dilemma...and as a matter of fact, I'm reading y'all's posts as I crank out a couple of DS articles. I've been a well-paid ad copywriter for 25 plus years and have worked on major accounts. My work slowed drastically this year so I'm doing what it takes. DS pays quick and it is relatively painless if you work the system. The strict guidelines are mostly no-brainers that good writers follow anyway.
I find DS to be what it is--a complete sweatshop and we writers are the equivalent to Chinese child labor. It's a take-the-money-and-run gig and the only way it pays is to find a way to work the system and crank fast...think of it as chump change... it's like scrounging around under your couch cushions or in your car for spare change. I only write titles that come easy or are interesting (such as Travel) and only when I don't have better paying work in front of me. I can handle writing about Belize or Prague when I don't have anything better to do. Spend that time surfing Facebook? Wasting time on the 'Net? Or get $15 easy bux in my paypal account? That's a dinner tab or a bottle of wine. Two stories a day every day is $900 sure bucks per month. As an ad copywriter, I am used to cranking out copy qucikly. DS can be done. Just think of it as a way to scrounge change. That's it. And even though I readily admit some days I feel abused and burned out.
I charge $70 an hour for copy and concept work. I am still waiting to get paid for work I completed in September. DS paid my dinner tab last night at the brewpub. I'm lowering myself of course, but who the hell cares. Take the money and RUN.
I'd have to agree with the commenter who said it isn't exactly a burger-flipping rate. Even with the higher demands from Demanding Studio, as many of us call them, it still pays about $25 an hour. That's not ideal, but it's nice to have in slow times or when you have unanticipated expenses. To pretend that it isn't is just silly. To put it into perspective, the last newspaper I wrote for paid reporters a top rate of $10 an hour, and several of us made less than that.
I'm also a little surprised that you didn't know it was a large corporation just because it has the word "Studios" in the company name. That's just strange. "Studios" usually just means that the company has something to do with the arts.
I'm not a huge fan of Demand right now, but I don't by any means look down on those who are writing regularly for them. These are tough times for a lot of people, and being out of work, scrounging for $1-a-word jobs that take a week to write or making $10 an hour in a shop are certainly not preferable to writing for a content mill.
To make $25 an hour, given that I've been hearing that some of the work is dropping to $7.50 an article, that's three articles an hour, hour after hour. I write in volume and I write quickly and I'd find that pace to be intellectually exhausting. I frankly don't believe that anyone is doing that on a sustained basis unless they are making liberal use of the work of others, whether research or writing, and that they aren't monitoring their own time closely enough to know exactly how long it takes them. Maybe I'm just a dope, but I'm one that's been in this business a long time and that knows what it takes to accomplish tasks. And if you can only keep it up for a few hours and that's your income, then it might as well be flipping burgers. If you're talking about as a fill-in - I still think that writers can find better paying work. I know too many who are very busy. I also know that many editors are disappointed by the writers they deal with, so you do have to get your work up to a certain level to do it.
And why, pray tell, should I have known it was a a mid-sized corporation? ($200 million a year is not that large in the corporate world.) Generally I've found companies argue that they can't afford to pay better today, but hope to tomorrow. This stands that on its head and effectively says, "We don't want to pay a reasonable amount for what we want, so come work for us anyway."
Finally, to say "scrounging for $1-a-word jobs that take a week to write or making $10 an hour in a shop are certainly not preferable to writing for a content mill" is simply nuts. Are you literally and honestly telling me that a writer taking buck a word assignments is worse off than someone knocking stuff off piecework? A 1200 word assignment might take ten hours to do well. So use the other 30 hours to find the next few assignments and you're grossing $1200 a week, versus whatever you can put together with a DS. How can you even compare the two, let alone decide in the favor of piecework?
Hi, actually, the articles are $15. There are short half articles, called fact sheets, that pay $7.50.
I actually didn't say that you should have known it was a mid-sized corporation. I just thought it was strange that you took the world Studios to mean that it was a small company. The word has never had that connotation to me.
The two scenarios that you offer, working 40 hours a week doing print work for $1200 or working 40 hours a week at $25 an hour doing this type of work are actually very comparable. Forty hours at $25 an hour is $1,000, which you will be paid quickly according to the contract schedule. It's less than $1,200, but it's guaranteed.
The $1,200 will likely be paid in several months, and it's by no means guaranteed. It may get axed and replaced by a kill fee or the pub can simply go out of business as so many are these days. It may also be rejected, resulting in nothing.
I don't count out print work by any means, but I can't afford to do it right now. With a spouse who's been laid off, like so many millions of others, we can't wait months to be paid or go without a week's pay because someone didn't accept one article that was supposed to be the week's sole income.
I'm actually not dependent on content work right now, but I have been in the past and it certainly could happen again. And if it does, it still pays a lot more than I made as a reporter, even when you factor in the self-employment tax.
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They're not comparable at all. On one hand you have a tough writing pace for a full 40-hour week to make $1,000. And from everything that DS writers have been saying, there is no guarantee that you can get enough work to hit that kind of number, and you have to satisfy the editor to get paid, so there's no advantage.
On the other hand, it's one article taking part of a week and leaving plenty of time to prospect and market for more business. Getting articles killed isn't that common, at least if you know what you are doing. So do two of them if you're uncertain and still have half the week to make your business work. Yes, you do have to wait for the money, and if your back is to the wall, you may not be able to do that. But you need to work toward that, otherwise you are locked into continuing working for what are, frankly, ridiculous rates the same as someone who works in a company town and is locked into just doing more of the same.
And who's saying it has to be print? There is online work paying $1/word and more. Not as easy to find, but certainly out there.
You're not stuck with one article a week and then waiting. Sell more, fill your calender more, and cover yourself should a payment be slow. The point is that if you want to make money in freelancing, you have to make it a business, not a poor second cousin to a staff position. It takes a different approach than looking for someone to take care of you by providing work. That's just the nature of the endeavor.
I see where you are coming from Erik...and everyone. Some days I really really HATE DS...Places like DS do bring the craft of writing down into the mud and create a community of hacks. And truth told, I often feel guilty contributing to the content mills. I also contend that they play with your head a little, and it can be addictive. But cash is cash.
Right after I posted my comment here, I transferred $80 easy bucks just deposited by DS into my paypal to my bank account and went to Costco. I live in rural Hawaii... and if my writing work gets too slow, I don't want to have to go down and get a job at Target or Chevron. Know what I mean?
Just as an experiment, I timed myself today, writing a DS title as fast as I could without interruptions and including all writing, "research" and proofing. The topic was "Cheap Hotels in Zurich." It's a quick intro of about 50 words I can bang out off the top of head, and three sections. Hotels must be referenced with address, phone and their own Web site (not Expedia, etc.). Write a few lines about each hotel, don't lift from other writers and you're done. I started the title at 10:54am and finished at exactly 11:17am. So about 25 minutes. As long as it doesn't come back for fixes, it's a quick $15, and I got to learn something about Zurich. Not so terrible.
>> Just as an experiment, I timed myself today, writing a DS title as fast as I could without interruptions and including all writing, "research" and proofing. The topic was "Cheap Hotels in Zurich." It's a quick intro of about 50 words I can bang out off the top of head, and three sections. Hotels must be referenced with address, phone and their own Web site (not Expedia, etc.). Write a few lines about each hotel, don't lift from other writers and you're done. I started the title at 10:54am and finished at exactly 11:17am. So about 25 minutes. As long as it doesn't come back for fixes, it's a quick $15, and I got to learn something about Zurich. Not so terrible. <<
A few practical points. If you were timing yourself and racing as fast as you could, I'd bet that's not your usual pace. Not a criticism, just an observation of what we're all like. That would also mean that, if you could keep up the pace, you'd be making $30 an hour. But if it's sprint writing, so to speak, then it's no more sustainable than a sprinter can keep up the pace over a mile or more. All of this factors into how you run your business. You have to plan for when you can't work at a frenetic rush, or when you're sick, or when it takes longer to find sources. (And I'll bet money that many DS writers do lift from other writers - research if not outright wording.)
Making a living off something like DS requires everything to go right. When things don't, you're in danger - and things never go right all the time.
Erik--valid points well taken. I DID rush it, but I suppose that's the only way to NOT feel taken advantage of by content mills. There's all kinds of crazy justifying that you do in your head when you're enslaved by content mills. :-)
I can't think of DS as "a living." It's just for fill-in spare change. My goal is two stories a day and only titles I can crank. Now, I do admit (and this is crazy) to working on DS stories when I have other, higher paying work due and sitting there waiting for me! I know--completely nuts. That had to stop. Sheeze.
I feel sorry for writers starting out today who have nowhere else to turn but content mills like DS or outright thieves like elance. They don't know any better and think they are now "professional" because someone paid them to write a fact sheet. The truth is, the quality of good writing speaks for itself and hacks are easy to spot. Many articles I have seen written for DS by other writers are just plain BAD.
I've been very lucky Erik. I've always had paying writing work as a freelancer and enough work to support myself and buy a house in Hawaii. In these difficult economic times, DS just helps with the incidentals. Medical insurance? One story a day pays for it. Groceries and miscellaneous kid expenses? Turn on the DS crank. There's a time and a place if you don't take them too seriously!
P.S. I have definitely considered writing under a pen name..because I don't want my copywriting clients to find out what I'm doing. They'd want me to lower my rates!
Hawaii - that explains your hour of writing. (If only it explained mine...)
>> I feel sorry for writers starting out today who have nowhere else to turn but content mills like DS or outright thieves like elance. They don't know any better and think they are now "professional" because someone paid them to write a fact sheet. <<
But that's the fallacy - that writer mills are the only choice. They're not. The writers do have to work at improving their craft and learning how to run a business. But there are other choices.
>> I've been very lucky Erik. I've always had paying writing work as a freelancer and enough work to support myself and buy a house in Hawaii. In these difficult economic times, DS just helps with the incidentals. <<
In my experience in freelancing and consulting, I've found that an ongoing pattern of making money is never luck.
>> I have definitely considered writing under a pen name..because I don't want my copywriting clients to find out what I'm doing. They'd want me to lower my rates! <<
The business issues are considerable, I agree.
But don't you think the content mills prey on the beginners? These newbs just don't know any better. At least the pros know what we're getting into with a place like DS.
Regarding "LUCKY"-- I guess you're taking me literally. I've worked really hard for my success and now.. I'm an OLD pro. :-). And I can't believe I've been doing writing as a pro for more than 25 years!
Personally I believe everyone has to put in time as a staff writer in some capacity before expecting to build a freelance career online. I spent years working in Southern Calif. ad agencies. YEARS...
It's midnight here now and I leave all writing--content or otherwise-- behind to go outrigger paddling every Sat. morning...Aloha!
I think the writer mills prey on a range of people. Yes, many beginners, and that's one of the reasons I find the business so offensive. If you really know the lay of the land and want to do it, that's one thing. Someone knew? It becomes more of a con job.
>> And I can't believe I've been doing writing as a pro for more than 25 years! <<
Longer than I have. Well, unless I count technical writing and overlook some extensive times when I did other things. :)
>> Personally I believe everyone has to put in time as a staff writer in some capacity before expecting to build a freelance career online. <<
I wouldn't agree. I was never on staff as a writer - ah, but there is that technical writing thing that I did on staff. But as a journalist? Nope, all freelance.
Enjoy the paddling while we've got the wood stove on to warm the downstairs. Already had the first snow fall.
First of all, the biggest misnomer here is the word "article." These supposed "articles" are really just glammed-up listings. If you learn the formula, you can churn them out at a rapid pace, about 30 minutes each. Sure, some take longer than others. There is the occasional rewrite, usually reasonable. The isolated unreasonable rewrites make you want to blow your stack, but you carry on. Because in reality, you are making approximately $18 an hour. Which is $1 more an hour than my local paper pays its reporters for real articles. So let's just get over the idea that we are writing valuable "articles." They are nothing but simpleton content that will surely not find their way into the likes of Reuter's or AP. It's a take it or leave it scenario, and in this economy, I'm more than willing to spend a few hours a week to supplement my income.
Karen
This is so simple to me.
I have a job as a sports editor at a small, weekly newspaper. I like my job and take pride in my work. But I make less than $11 per hour.
DS gives me an opportunity to breathe a little financially. That's it.
Instead of living paycheck to paycheck (and struggling some months just to do that), I'm able to make up some ground on my student loans and build up my savings account.
That's it.
Maybe I just don't know all the secrets anti-DS people know. But for me, I just doubled my income. What's the argument against that?
Matt
Great research. I have been raving about these cockroaches of the internet--Demand Media, Helium, Hub Pages, Suite 101, Triond, etc for months--but hadn't done the due diligence you did to learn that some dopey titan of industry was actually taking everyone for a ride. Writers were doing fine--many of us supporting families, buying houses and cars--for decades, then came the indemnity clauses and stupid lawyer tricks, and hard on that--the cockroaches convincing people they needed to write for free for "exposure" (yeah, at a FREE place). Now it's bleeding into the remaining "real" venues--and they are cutting rates even with their long-time writers. People can do what they want, but if they ever need to make real money, it may not be there for the making--and they can look to themselves. I used to have a Gannett freelance contract for newspaper columns, now I guess they just call up Demand and get some pap to fill in between ads, if they can get ads. Ads come from readers, see, and readers like things to read.
These posts on Demand Studios are interesting. I haven't waded through all the comments but Melissa Barton's stood out as hitting the nail on the head.
Much of the criticism of these writer mills seems to come from veteran writers of 20+ years who don't even try to understand the reasons why people write for these mills.
You have to understand why these jobs are appealing - especially to college-age writers. Every kid nowadays has a blog, whether on Blogger or MySpace or Facebook. They've been conditioned to write online for fun, for free. So the prospect of making a few bucks at Demand, when you're used to writing for nothing, has great appeal.
I'm a perfect example. Here's my story: I started a music blog two years ago as a hobby. I never had any expectation of getting paid. It really never even occurred to me. Earlier this year I started a travel blog, again just for fun.
Not long ago, I read that sites like Examiner and Demand would pay me between $5 and $15 for short articles. As someone who's been writing for free for the past two years, the prospect of suddenly being compensated for my writing was too hard to resist. $15 an article is a LOT of money for someone who had been perfectly content to make $0.
So I signed up. I've been writing for Examiner & Demand for a few months. As I've kept stumbling upon sites like yours, I've realized that other, much more high paying jobs are available, and I've been reconsidering whether I want to continue with these mills. So thanks for starting this discussion.
I guess my point is that many of the writers for these sites are newbies who are just happy to make anything because they don't know any better.
Now that I do know better, I'll be seeking out other writing gigs and backing off the writing mills.
I just wish people wouldn't be so quick to vilify those who write for these sites. They haven't been in the business for 20 years, and they have no idea that $15 per article isn't a fair wage.
Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate the site and your analysis.
The professional writers here who object to DS and other 'writers mills' talk about how much your time is worth. What you don't tell us is who the heck is paying you all those big bucks. It's been my experience that nobody wants to hire you to write unless you have writing credits. Till now that has meant writing for free on "literary" magazines, newspapers and other non-paying sources or sending out stuff that gets rejected over and over and over.
My first book took me a year of research and then another year of fooling around with the book editor to get it like they wanted, and then they stuck it up on their website, have marketed it largely to the wrong audience and I haven't made enough off the book to pay for the printer cartridges I burned through writing the danged thing. And I got wonderful reviews.
So if you want to be helpful, how about telling us where to go to get these big bucks. I'm not holding my breath, because like many professionals, writers guard their sources of income. Why should you invite competition?
So, not knowing the way to the secret cave of high paying writing jobs, most of us newbies will have to content ourselves writing for whoever will pay us and building a writing resume'. Then when we're asked if we've ever been paid to write, we can say "Yes". If someone wants to see my work, he can read my blog. I have a couple of viral works out on the Internet. I'm not getting paid for them, but I'm sure as hell asking people to put my name on it whenever I find it. I consider it my payment for advertising myself. These days, you do what you can. Being a good writer isn't enough anymore.
You'll have to pardon those of us who have to eat instead of being able to live in Mom's basement and run a paper route while we endure the gazillion rejection letters that represent a writer "paying his dues". DS is a pain and I get tired churning out articles on the efficacy of pine straw as a mulch, but you do what you've got to do and $15 is a lot better than hours and postage spent and $0 paid. At least it's consistent. Sorry if we're watering down the money pool, but we're just trying not to starve while waiting for that big break.
If "professional" writers want to be paid well, let them start their own on-line publishing company. With the Internet, it's a relatively cheap prospect to set a site that produces high quality product. Surely someone who can make tens of thousands of dollars off a book idea could come up with a way to compete with the mills. Call me if you need an editor.
Tom
>> So if you want to be helpful, how about telling us where to go to get these big bucks. I'm not holding my breath, because like many professionals, writers guard their sources of income. Why should you invite competition? <<
I share sources with people I know - my colleagues and peers. You want to find better-paying work? Then do as all of us who are more established did: Get off your God-damned ass and work. It's persistence, hard labor, and learning from your mistakes that make the difference. Why should I or anyone else hand you something? You wouldn't value it and would likely bitterly complain if someone didn't take your query.
On this blog alone you can find reams of information on how to prospect for clients, how to sell, how to market, how to analyze your business, and much more. Go through that and learn something. I put it up without taking a penny from anyone for it, and I'm fine with that. I'm happy to help. Only the people looking for help have to make an effort to get unstuck. If you can't do even that, then you're not going to make it in this business because you won't undertake the necessary effort.
>> You'll have to pardon those of us who have to eat instead of being able to live in Mom's basement and run a paper route while we endure the gazillion rejection letters that represent a writer "paying his dues". <<
You are being an ass. While I was "breaking in," I was self employed and sole support for my family of four. Go cry a river at someone else's door, as I have no sympathy. Read. Improve your writing. Learn about some topic so you can bring insight. Get better at the business. Just like every last successful freelancer I know has done. There is no easy way. The sooner you uncover your head and learn that, the sooner you will be able to succeed. THERE IS NO MAGIC FORMULA, SILVER BULLET, OR BIG BREAK. It's developing yourself and your business, and you need to have a taste for that if you want to do this type of work.
And if I need an editor, there are many I know personally who work hard, understand the business, and have honed their skills. They put in the effort. Why would I even consider trusting someone who thinks that it's my job to get him work. I'd hate to hire someone (and I have been known to, by the way) who'd likely think that I should be doing the work for him.
I share sources with people I know - my colleagues and peers. You want to find better-paying work? Then do as all of us who are more established did: Get off your God-damned ass and work.
EXCUSE ME? YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW HARD I WORK. I HAD MY LAST VACATION IN 1985. THAT’S PRETTY MUCH IT. I WORK VERY HARD.
It's persistence, hard labor, and learning from your mistakes that make the difference. Why should I or anyone else hand you something? You wouldn't value it and would likely bitterly complain if someone didn't take your query.
NO ONE ASKED YOU TO HAND ME ANYTHING, NOR DO I COMPLAIN ABOUT QUERIES THAT GET IGNORED.
On this blog alone you can find reams of information on how to prospect for clients, how to sell, how to market, how to analyze your business, and much more. Go through that and learn something. I put it up without taking a penny from anyone for it, and I'm fine with that. I'm happy to help. Only the people looking for help have to make an effort to get unstuck. If you can't do even that, then you're not going to make it in this business because you won't undertake the necessary effort.
I APPRECIATE YOUR ADVICE. I FOLLOW YOUR BLOG. ACTUALLY, I WASN’T EVEN RESPONDING TO YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE, BUT I SEE I’VE TOUCHED A NERVE. I APOLOGIZE FOR APPEARING TO BE ATTACKING YOU. I WAS NOT.
You are being an ass. While I was "breaking in," I was self employed and sole support for my family of four. Go cry a river at someone else's door, as I have no sympathy. Read. Improve your writing. Learn about some topic so you can bring insight. Get better at the business. Just like every last successful freelancer I know has done. There is no easy way. The sooner you uncover your head and learn that, the sooner you will be able to succeed. THERE IS NO MAGIC FORMULA, SILVER BULLET, OR BIG BREAK. It's developing yourself and your business, and you need to have a taste for that if you want to do this type of work.
NEVER ASKED FOR A MAGIC FORMULA. MY POINT IS THAT D.S. AND OTHER RESOURCES GIVE NEWBIES AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO JUST WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING – WRITE! LEARNING TO WRITE FOR AN EDITOR CAN BE A BRUTALLY LONG PROCESS. WITH DS, IT’S PRETTY CONCENTRATED PRACTICE IN MAKING OFTEN CRANKY EDITORS HAPPY. IT’S SOMETHING OF AN ON-LINE EDUCATION FOR FOLKS LOOKING TO BREAK INTO WRITING. IT REQUIRES DISCIPLINE. IT’S VERY MUCH LIKE WORKING FOR A NEWSPAPER, WHICH IS A TIME HONORED WAY OF BREAKING INTO THE WRITING GAME.
And if I need an editor, there are many I know personally who work hard, understand the business, and have honed their skills. They put in the effort. Why would I even consider trusting someone who thinks that it's my job to get him work. I'd hate to hire someone (and I have been known to, by the way) who'd likely think that I should be doing the work for him.
I NEVER SAID IT’S YOUR JOB TO GET ME WORK. THE POINT IS THAT THESE MILLS ARE FILLING UP WEBSITES LIKE E-HOW AND OTHERS WITH CONTENT. IT’S NOT HIGH QUALITY CONTENT BECAUSE THE FORMAT LIMITS YOU SEVERELY. PEOPLE WON’T TAKE LONG TO FIGURE THAT OUT.
SOME DAY, SOMEONE WILL TWEAK A SEARCH ENGINE SO THAT IT AUTOMATICALLY KICKS MILL CONTENT WEBSITES DOWN THE LIST WHEN YOU DO A WEBSEARCH. THEY’LL PUT A “HIGH QUALITY” TAB IN AND START RATING WEBSITES.
I’VE ALREADY LEARNED THAT IF I WANT GOOD IN-DEPTH CONTENT, I SHOULD LOOK BACK SEVERAL PAGES IN A GOOGLE SEARCH TO FIND STUFF THAT DOES MORE THAN GIVE YOU A BROAD OVERVIEW. THE WRITER’S MILLS ARE WRITING SEARCH ENGINE OPTIMIZED, DICTIONARY OR ENCYCLOPEDIA QUALITY ENTRIES - NOTHING MORE. IT WON’T BE LONG BEFORE THE COMPETING SITES WILL DO ON THE NET WHAT DOOR TO DOOR ENCYCLOPEDIA SALESMEN DID TO EACH OTHER IN THE 60’S. THEY’LL SATURATE THE MARKET. WHEN THAT HAPPENS, THE DS MONEY WILL DRY UP LIKE A DESERT IN A HIGH WIND. I KNOW I’M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO AVOIDS THE TOP OF THE SEARCH LIST AND I’M CERTAIN THIS BEHAVIOR WILL KNOCK THE MARKET FOR THIS STUFF ON ITS PINS AND THEY WILL DIE A NATURAL DEATH.
Tom, I do apologize. It's fairly frequent that writers ask me to give them markets or otherwise do things for them that they should be doing themselves. (For example, I recently received an email from someone I did not know who wanted to break into freelancing and have me, on an ongoing basis, critique his work as a favor.) I did think you were addressing me, not someone else in the comments.
Yes, learning to write for an editor can be a brutal process and requires developing a thick skin. I think you are right about how the mills work. I think that this will result in some interesting issues on the Internet - something I plan to write about in the near future. Check a post I did either yesterday or today - a link to the Wired piece about Demand. The analogy of the kid screaming out answers in class, whether right or wrong, is compelling.
Erik-
Obviously, you know what you're talking about... You've found a route to building a successful career and you deserve kudos for that.
However, you might want to entertain the idea that there are other ways for people to build a successful career.
Look, I'm biased. I own a fledgling little content mill (yeah, I'm comfortable calling it that). I've written plenty of cheap content over the years as PART of my business. I did it when it made sense to do so based on a variety of different factors.
I think you map out a great way to make a living as a writer. Those who want your kind of career should pay attention to those recommendations.
Others are going to find different ways to be happy.
There's no reason to engage in a pissing match over who has the best approach, though.
I'm not going to say that your approach is BS. I am going to say that it's one of many and that it's worth at least considering the possibility that certain forms of work that you don't like can have a place in a well-rounded strategy to making a good living.
Carson
Carson, I'm not saying that there is only one way to make money in writing. I am saying that there is a difference between building your own business and subsidizing someone else's. You may have written "cheap content over the years as PART of my business," but that's the point. It was your business, so the lowered rates were really an investment in something that would eventually pay off. When it comes to making a living, getting cheap rates so someone else can build a business because of them simply doesn't make sense, and writers should understand the realities and possibilities. Once they really do, then, sure, they do what they want.
ERIC,
I DON’T THINK THAT A FEW STARVING WRITERS PICKING UP A FEW BUCKS FOR THE MILLS IS A BAD THING. THE PULP MAGAZINES ARE GONE. NEWSPAPERS AREN’T HIRING FILLER WRITERS MUCH ANYMORE. THAT’S AN ARTIFACT OF THE DECLINE OF NEWSPAPERS AND PRINT MEDIA MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.
NET-BASED PRINT-ON-DEMAND IS TURNING BOOK PUBLISHING ON ITS EAR. BIG PUBLISHING HOUSES ARE CHALLENGED BY SELF-PUBLISHERS AND LEAN, NIMBLE INDEPENDENTS. TECHNOLOGY ALLOWS MUSICIANS TO PRODUCE CD QUALITY RECORDINGS IN THEIR LIVING ROOMS, COSTING TRADITIONAL RECORD STUDIOS THEIR IRON GRIP ON THE MUSIC INDUSTRY. PERFORMERS CAN BUILD THEIR OWN AUDIENCES, SELL THEIR OWN MATERIAL AND REAP PROFITS WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE STUDIOS. RIAA HAS BECOME QUITE LITIGIOUS LATELY, NOT SO MUCH TO PROTECT RECORDING ARTISTS, AS TO PROTECT THEIR CUT OF WHAT THOSE ARTISTS MAKE. THEY’VE READ THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL.
THE INTERNET ERODES THE POWER OF THE GATEKEEPERS. WRITERS HAVE COMPLAINED FOR AGES ABOUT THE PUBLISHING PROCESS. HOW MANY REJECTIONS DID TOM CLANCY, MARGARET MITCHELL OR JK ROWLINGS GET BEFORE SOMEONE TOOK A CHANCE ON THEM. NOW, IF I BELIEVE IN SOMETHING I WRITE, I CAN GO OUT AND FOR A REASONABLE COST, PUT IT OUT MYSELF.
IF I WIN, I WIN. IF NOT, AT LEAST I TRIED. WITH MY OWN BOOK, I’M DOING MOST OF THE LEGWORK BECAUSE MY PUBLISHER DOESN’T WANT TO GO OUTSIDE THEIR COMFORT ZONE. I KNOW THERE’S A HUGE AUDIENCE FOR MY BOOK, BUT I HAVE BELIEVE IN IT ENOUGH TO PAY FOR ADVERTISING, DO WORKSHOPS AND POUND THE PAVEMENT.
BUT I KEPT THE COPYRIGHT. WHEN THEY’RE DONE WITH IT, I CAN REPRINT IT MYSELF. WHATEVER HAPPENS, THE SUCCESS OF THE BOOK DEPENDS ON ME MORE THAN IT EVER HAS IN THE PAST.
THOSE OF US, WHO DON’T GET AS EXCITED OVER THE LOW PAY MILLS AS HARLAN ELLISON, ARE SAYING THAT WE KNOW THE PUBLISHING IDUSTRY IS CHANGING AND WHILE IT’S CHANGING, THE MILLS ARE A QUICK WAY TO MAKE A BUCK AND BUY TIME TO BUILD OUR FREELANCE BUSINESSES. THERE’S NOT A LOT OF MONEY IN IT, BUT THEN THE OLD PULP MAGAZINES WEREN’T TERRIBLY LUCRATIVE EITHER AT 1 CENT A WORD. THEY WERE WRITER’S MILLS TOO, BUT THEY TRAINED SOME INCREDIBLY TALENTED WRITERS INCLUDING ELLISON HIMSELF, RAY BRADBURY, ROBERT HEINLIN, ISAAC ASIMOV AND OTHERS.
WHEN YOU ENCOURAGE A BOYCOTT OF WRITER’S MILLS BECAUSE OF THE LOW PAY, YOU BASICALLY ARE ASKING US TO VOLUNTARILY AVOID THE SAME KIND OF INCOME SOURCES THE OLD TIME WRITERS CUT THEIR TEETH ON BEFORE THE PULP MAGAZINES DIED OUT. THAT PUTS A HURDLE IN THE PATH OF THE NEXT GENERATION. GOOD FOR ESTABLISHED WRITERS, BUT NOT SO GOOD FOR THOSE OF US WHO ARE NEW TO THE GAME.
MAYBE WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS REINVENT THE PULPS FOR THE NEW MILLENNIUM. A LOT OF US ARE BUSILY CREATING OUR OWN STABLES OF WEBPAGES HOPING TO BUILD AN AUDIENCE AND INCOME FROM ADVERTISING.
I HOPE SOMEONE - MAYBE A GROUP OF WRITERS - CREATES A SITE WITH IN-DEPTH CONTENT THAT CHALLENGES THE MILLS WITH BETTER PRODUCT AND EQUITABLY SHARES THE WEALTH WITH THE PEOPLE WHO WRITE THE STUFF. MAYBE AN ON-LINE WRITING TALENT BROKER?
A CLIENT NEEDS IN-DEPTH INFO ON A SUBJECT, PAYS A FEE AND YOU GET IT WRITTEN ON A DEADLINE FOR HIM. HECK, YOU COULD EVEN FARM IT OUT TO 3 WRITERS AND PICK THE BEST. THE ODDS OF ACCEPTANCE WOULD STILL BE BETTER THAN MAILING SOMETHING TO A PRINT PUBLISHER. AFTER YOU GIVE THE MATERIAL TO THE USER, YOU COULD POST IT IN A DATABASE AND IF SOMEONE ELSE WANTED THE INFO, IT COULD BE SOLD AGAIN.
I’M ONLY SUGGESTING THAT IT’S WASTING TIME FOR WRITERS TO BOYCOTT. IT WILL ONLY TAKE MONEY OUT OF THE HANDS OF STRUGGLING WRITERS, I SUGGEST WE FIND A WAY TO MAKE A BETTER PRODUCT THAN THE MILLS PRODUCE. DISNEY DID IT WITH AMUSEMENT PARKS AND CHILDREN’S MOVIES. GEORGE LUCAS DID IT WITH SCI-FI/SPECIAL EFFECTS MOVIES. SO, WHY CAN’T A SMART GROUP OF WRITER’S DO IT WITH INFORMATION. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A BETTER OPPORTUNITY TO SEIZE THE REINS FROM THE OLD GUARD.
MAYBE I’LL DO IT MYSELF.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, ERIC. I DO RESPECT WHAT YOU DO.
TOM
Tom,
Typing in all caps is considered SCREAMING on the Internet.
THANKS,
Ken
Tim Armstrong’s Secret Project Is To Turn AOL Into A Low-Cost Content Machine
http://tinyurl.com/yhlhsaq
I KNOW all caps is used for that in emphasizing certain bits. I don't see the point in emphasizing every word that way. I would have done it in bold or italics or indented to differentiate my responses from sections where I was quoting, but I didn't have time to refresh my memory on HTML code and the comments section here kind of requires some HTML coding to differentiate text. I took a short cut by hitting the caps lock. Sorry for shouting. I worked seven summers as a lifeguard and canoeing instructor, so I'm fairly loud anyway and I guess it kind of bleeds over into my writing. Sorry I let it slop over onto the net. I wasn't shouting, just separating text. I write about 3000 to 4000 words a day minimum in keeping up with my grant writing, free lance work and correspondence. You'd think I'd take time to learn HTML tags and I sort of have them down, but inevitably I get something screwed up waste 30 minutes trying to track down the coding error and it's just not worth it, especially when you're pressed for time. I'll try to figure out another tactic for dealing with quoted material so as not to hurt people's ears (quotation marks just doesn't seem to do it).
;)
Tom
Demand Studios is a bullshit gig to pay the bills while I finish my book. The content is used by morons ("How to change a lightbulb") and edited by cretins (DS content editors are, on balance, dumb as a sack of hammers. Just unbelievably drop-jaw stupid).
I will quit this suck-ass, soul-deadening gig the instant the book hits the galley stage and my publisher cuts a second check.
In this life, in this economy, you do what you gotta do to feed your family. And there will always be motherfuckers like those running Demand Studios to exploit talent while we work on the Next Big Thing.
It might be something to tell the grandkids one day, but right now, Demand Studios can kiss the collective asses of all self-respecting writers who are struggling with the need to eat versus the desire to maintain their pride.
Tuff call, that.
Deman Sudios is a joke, and not a very funny one.
The copy editors sre incompetent and alarmingly unintelligent. During the time I wrote there, I would receive inquires such as "what is a dowel?" or, "what's engineering?"
It was embarassing even to be associated with those morons.
Hi Erik -- I've launched my organizing campaign against the content mills...you can read the kickoff blog here, "7 Reasons Why I Won't Write $15 Blogs" http://caroltice.com/blog/27
I invite you and your writers to sign my petition http://caroltice.com/petition ...let's start a movement and stop griping to ourselves!
Carol Tice
http://www.caroltice.com
http://Twitter.com/TiceWrites
Erik...so I recently graduated and I am really struggling to find work. I thought about writing about 1000 "revenue share" articles for DS and live off of the monthly passive income. But are you saying that $1 or so a month is't forever? Is there any websites that provide lifetime, clickthrough ownership so I can have the passive income as long as the article is online? I agree they are screwing me price-wise, but I have other passions besides writing, but an hourly job doesn't allow me to pursue my real dreams with all the time commitment... Any suggestions for passive income via writing? Thanks
Mark, you can't count on making anything from residual income from articles. You might and you might not. It depends on how often the articles and the attendant ads are viewed. But planning on it is unrealistic. The mills constantly get new content on in-demand topics because the more recent the material, the higher the ratings in the search engines. So you're actually in competition with a mill's best business interests. Guess who will win?
I know it would be nice to do what you like with your time, but part of the reality of the world is understanding that you do have to work to make a living unless you come from highly unusual circumstances that have left you with a trust fund. Part of the work and discipline necessary to learn to do something well comes from practically dealing with this struggle between what you must do and what you would do. For example, I want to draw well and so have to carve out time - even if it's half an hour at 11pm or midnight - to get practice in. As a result, I've seen real improvement over the last couple of years.
And that's the real root of passion - not a romantic and energized feeling about a topic (or even a person), but the everyday work you do, even when you don't feel like it, to further your interest in something that you see as simply that important. If the circumstances are too easy, you never get to develop the respect and value for the object of your "passion" that you will need to truly pursue it. You need to develop the psychology muscle, if you will, to keep going even when things get tough - and, believe me, they can get tougher than you can possibly imagine at the moment.
Wow,you took the words out of my mouth. I figured I'd give them a shot to make some extra dough as I expand my own sites. I've made $30.00 after writing 4 articles, 2 were rejected. SOOO not worth my time given the amount of research you have to do when you have such inconsistent editing from people who don't what the hell they're reading. (I wrote technical how-tos)...and the $15.00 sounds great at first ( I can type fast and write something up quick) but when you look @ their editorial process, research, and time, that $15.00 is more like $2.00 in my book. I also looked at what they do as a company and you're right....PENNIES!! I've only been with them for 2 weeks, and some might think I'm not giving them a chance..but I can see through the BS and after reading this as well as other reviews I've found on NET, my feelings are validated. THANK YOU!!!
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